Commons:Village pump/Copyright

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How much do we actually care about paintings being in the public domain in the United States?

{{PD-old}} says that "You must also include a United States public domain tag to indicate why this work is in the public domain in the United States.". This is very rarely done, and when it is, it's usually simply marking it as "expired" without providing any evidence of the fact. For example, File:Henry Clive - Sultana.jpg is featured, but was it published before 1929, not just painted or exhibited then? (See en:Wikipedia:Public_domain#Publication.) See, for example, some of the deletion requests on enwiki in en:Wikipedia:Files_for_discussion/2024_July_4. Some (for example, en:File:Henri Matisse, 1909, Still Life with Dance, oil on canvas, 89.5 x 117.5 cm, Hermitage Museum, Saint Petersburg.jpg) have publication information, but most do not, and almost none here do; if they do, there's no obvious way of indicating the actual evidence in the copyright tag. Are we just cavalierly ignoring the actual copyright rules and hoping for the best here? grendel|khan 14:24, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly agree with your general point that actual research should be conducted before slapping on a {{PD-US-expired}} tag, and that such a tag is clearly necessary.

Regarding specifically Henry Clive's Sultana, it seems to have originally been commissioned as calendar art, and seems indeed to have been published by the Louis F. Dow Calendar Company upon completion in 1925 (cf. this gallery page). Felix QW (talk) 14:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the evidence should certainly be included on the page; perhaps one could use the "permission" field in the information template for this purpose? Those using the {{Artwork}} template can make use of the "exhibition history" field as well. Felix QW (talk) 14:54, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be more comfortable if it was part of the license tag in some way. The situation can be pretty complicated, and I'd like to be able to deterministically scan for files with incomplete copyright information. grendel|khan 17:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I am aware, we usually indicate the evidence for the license separately from the actual license tag, probably just because it can be pretty complicated. The only "deterministic" method is to look for files with no US copyright tag whatsoever; for everything else, one has to check the file page itself more closely. Felix QW (talk) 17:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is complicated. For non-US works, it depends on the definition of publication in the country of origin. I think that in most cases, if a painting was displayed in a place accessible to the public, it counts as publication. Also when a gallery displays works of art, it usually also publishes a catalog, so the works are also printed. Yann (talk) 18:02, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Catalog, yes; public exhibition, no. This is counterintuitive, but see en:Wikipedia:Public_domain#Publication as pointed out above; US copyright law and the Berne Convention agree that, in short, "A work is published when tangible copies of it are made available to the public at large.". Exhibition or performance alone do not constitute publication. grendel|khan 18:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably, the US definition matters for the US copyright and the source country definition matters for the source country copyright. According to COM:Public art and copyrights in the US, the definition of publication seems to has changed in 1978, with the previously adopted concept being significantly more liberal. According to the commentary on the page I just mentioned, this includes exhibition without preventing copying, or sale of the original. For post-1978 publication events, neither of those acts seem to suffice for publication. Felix QW (talk) 19:24, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Grendelkhan: I believe in the era in question, in the U.S., public display was considered publication, even if that is no longer the case. Could someone more expert please weigh in on that? - Jmabel ! talk 19:35, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://chart.copyrightdata.com/c01B.html says that in American Tobacco Co. vs Werckmeister 207 U.S. 284 (12-2-1907) (be careful with that; the plaintiffs and defendants apparently went back to the courts several times) the court ruled that display without stopping copying would have made the painting published.--Prosfilaes (talk) 20:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The current definition of publication only started in 1978 (as it came with the 1976 Copyright Act). Before then there was no definition in the law, and courts had to come up with some definitions. As mentioned in the Werckmeister case, the judges hinted that exhibition with no attempt to stop copying (by photography or drawing) could amount to publication. See Commons:Public art and copyrights in the US. Selling the painting may also qualify. (The dividing line between limited publication which did not lose copyright, and general publication which did, differed between judicial circuits so there are few clear-cut lines.) Most works are made to be published, so we often do assume publication near the date of creation, unless there is some evidence that shows that may have been delayed (such as the painter kept the painting themselves, or remained in the family for a long time). COM:PRP is for significant doubts; long-delayed publication is theoretically possible but less likely than under today's rules. We don't delete under any theoretical doubt; there should be some indication that this work had something a little abnormal happen to it. Carl Lindberg (talk) 21:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's what I mean above. Yann (talk) 21:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, for these old non-US paintings, the date of publication (under US law) should not depend on the definition of publication under the laws of the country of origin, but only the definition under US law. Additionally, since we are only speaking about pre-1978 paintings, only the pre-1978 definition of publication is relevant, as Clindberg says. American Tobacco Co. v. Werckmeister held that (under the pre-1978 definition) paintings and drawings, unlike books, are published by inspection and observation, and public display without a copyright notice or measures to prevent any copying constituted publication. (Additionally, this case specifically had to do with an exhibition outside the United States.)

The correct conclusion is that, as @Prosfilaes and @Jmabel say, pre-1978 exhibition of a painting or drawing constituted publication, and that such publication, made without a proper copyright notice (and renewal, if necessary) would put the painting in the public domain. Even if there were a notice, though, any painting published (so, exhibited without such measures taken to prevent copying as to preserve its common law copyright as an unpublished work) in 1928 or earlier, anywhere in the world, is in the public domain in the United States.

Most paintings were displayed publicly, and in most cases there was not this kind of rigid enforcement preventing copying which would have prevented publication. (Remember, also, that nobody needs to have actually copied the painting at that time; the important thing is that there was no systemic prevention of observation close enough as to allow for copying.) D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 21:58, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This would be extremely convenient, but it doesn't match up with existing policy as written on enwiki or at COM:PUBLISH. The interpretation that the pre-1978 definition applies to pre-1978 paintings (and the pre-1978 definition itself) does not appear on these pages.

Furthermore, we can't just assume that, say, a 1928 painting was never published. Given the explicitly started rules, if it was painted in 1928 but first published in, say, 1931, it would still be under copyright under US rules. (Non-renewal was mentioned elsewhere; that's only relevant if the author is American.) Commons:Public art and copyrights in the US is the work of one intern, and seems to apply only to permanent installations, and contradicts the main page on publication.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, so is our documentation on copyright law. At best, it's contradictory, and we should make better sense of it. grendel|khan 09:16, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There isn't really policy as much as legal opinion on these copyright matters at Commons. As far as policy goes, it essentially boils down to "should be in the public domain in both the US and the source country". And while COM:PUBLISH should probably be improved, at least it does contain a link to COM:Public art and copyrights in the US. Apparently, that page was actually originally written by an attorney interning for the WMF, which may be as close to a professional statement on the matter as we at Commons are likely to have. Felix QW (talk) 09:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As @Felix QW says, publication is determined by what the law says, not what COM:PUBLISH (a simplified summary of the law) does. I don't have my citation handy, but the old definition applies to pre-1978 publications. More broadly, the 1976 Act was not supposed to alter the terms of pre-1978 works — as retroactively seeming them unpublished would have. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 14:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are right, of course, that being created in 1928 or earlier does not imply publication in 1928 or earlier. I was talking mostly about paintings which are very old (think 1700s) but which have no US tag. A 1928 painting could have not been published until 1931 and could still be copyrighted.

As an aside, renewal is not only relevant for works by American artists, but also works first published in the US (per US definition) and works which were in the public domain in their source country on the URAA date (usually January 1, 1996). D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 14:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We certainly have to care about the paintings being in the public domain in the United States. But most of these paintings are clearly in the public domain in the US — just not tagged properly. The lack of a proper US tag is a problem, but not a huge one. It's a more general problem, actually; lots of old items are just marked "PD-old" without a US license, including (for instance) items published in books in the 1800s which are in the public domain in the US without question. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 21:50, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@D. Benjamin Miller: Hi, I don't understand why for a European painting published in Europe, we should use the US definition of publication, but I otherwise agree with your reasoning. Yann (talk) 19:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The US definition of publication determines whether or not an item was considered published according to US law — whether that publication took place in the US or abroad. For example, all works published in 1928 and earlier are in the public domain in the US, whether published in the US or abroad; the same definition is used to determine whether a work is published or not, wherever that act might have taken place. For instance, if Country X defined performing a play as publication, this would not matter for US law, since, under US law, performance of a play was not publication. See, for example, US cases of that era dealing with when foreign (usually British) plays were published; they apply the US law definition of publication on the basis the actions which took place outside the US. Of, course, the definition of publication in British law (or whatever country's law) would be used for determining whether or not publication took place according to that country's law, and this could determine the copyright status of the work in that country. But, except in circumstances where publication in the source country determines whether or not the work was in the public domain in its source country on the URAA date, the copyright status in the home country (determined by publication or other factors) doesn't determine US copyright status. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 20:12, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not "clear" that these works are in the public domain in the United States according to stated policy. That's the whole problem. Now, maybe the policy as written should be changed to reflect a different interpretation of the law, like "for pre-1978 art, public exhibition counts as publication for US copyright status, and we assume in the absence of contrary evidence that paintings were exhibited within five years of completion". It's certainly not being followed as written, and people elsewhere seem to take the stricter interpretation seriously.

So, should the stated policy at COM:PUBLISH be rewritten to reflect that for pre-1978 works, for US copyright status, public exhibition counts as publication for our purposes? grendel|khan 07:02, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some groups take a conservative interpretation to be absolutely sure. The group you links takes publication more than 95 years ago as the rule. However, it could be published without notice or published with notice and failure to renew in the US, or published without notice or with failure to renew outside the US by an artist who died before 1926 (life+70 nations) or 1946 (life+50 nations), or never have been published before 2002 by an artist who died more than 70 years ago, and therefore be in the public domain.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not at all safe to assume that any given painting was exhibited publicly within some arbitrary timespan from its creation. Many paintings are given as a gift, sold as a commissioned work, kept by the artist, offered directly for sale to a known patron, or otherwise not made available to the public. To assume, without any specific facts, that a painting was published, is not in keeping with the precautionary principle.

Any artworks with a PD-US assertion based on publication before 1978 should really be accompanied with some citations to confirm when publication occurred. But the vast majority of them are lacking those citations. I've often thought that we should have some template to point out that a PD assertion is lacking in supporting facts, like a less harsh version of {{Disputed}}, so reusers would be on notice to take the assertion with a grain of salt. Toohool (talk) 02:47, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that there is no reason to assume exhibition within an arbitrary timespan. However, in many cases, it should not be necessary to establish the exact date of first publication in all cases. In particular, since exhibition can be continuous, an old painting which is known (or, from particular circumstances, can be reasonably understood) to have been exhibited at some point over 95 years ago is in the public domain, even if the exact date of first exhibition can't be established.

Also, any work that was published via public exhibition without restriction (or publication in print without notice, etc.) at some point before 1978 (before March 1989 for print copies), anywhere in the world, and which was in the public domain under the laws of its source country as of 1996, is in the public domain in the US due to URAA ineligibility, even if not published in 1929 or earlier.

D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 14:07, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, what do you think the specific policy should be? We appear to currently base this on a vibe of "eh, good enough, it's probably okay", and while that's convenient, it's certainly not defensible or repeatable. I could be wrong, but this looks like a major gap in our policy. COM:PD is official policy, and it refers to en:Wikipedia:Public domain#Artworks, which is a "content guideline" rather than a "content policy", and states that "Artworks are likely to remain unpublished long after their creation date. A date of publication must be ascertained to establish PD status." Is this incorrect? Are we explicitly ignoring or contradicting this? grendel|khan 23:34, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe this has already been covered somewhere else and I just missed it but what actually counts as "publication" for a painting? For maybe a similar example, "raw" photographs pretty routinely get deleted due to being unpublished works. So I could see it being impossible for us to host any image of a painting created after the late 1800s depending on the definition. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-1978 publication in the US is murky, but it's generally defined as when a work is made available for the public to make copies, but there is also caselaw that says when a painting was sold, it was published according to the law of the time. Abzeronow (talk) 23:48, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I was thinking. But how are we realistically suppose to figure out on our end when a painting was first sold? --Adamant1 (talk) 00:09, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably more important is that case law suggests that pre-1978 in the U.S., exhibition constituted publication.

In any case, appearance in a catalogue, newspaper, etc. is clearly publication. - Jmabel ! talk 00:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which expiration date should the copyright of this image take?

Per Commons:Deletion requests/File:1962《阿诗玛》封面.jpg First, the work was published in 1962. According to the copyright law of the PRC, some people believe that the work belongs to a corporate work and should enter the public domain in the PRC in 2013. Due to URAA, the image entered the public domain in the United States in 2058. On the other hand, some people believe that the creator of the work died in 2023. For personally created works, it should not officially enter the public domain until 2074, but due to URAA, it will enter the public domain in the United States 16 years earlier than in the PRC. As for the time point for the image to enter the public domain, should it be 2058 or 2074? Fumikas Sagisavas (talk) 11:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Works enter the public domain country by country. It's common to have works still under copyright in one country, and public domain (or at least copyright expired) in another. The Commons rule is that a work must be public domain in the country of origin (China it sounds like), and also the U.S. So it would be the later of the two dates, 2074 it sounds like. The fact it would be copyrighted in Colombia for 80pma (until 2104), or some 70pma countries (ones which don't use the rule of the shorter term) until 2094, would not have a bearing on uploading it here (though you would still need to get a license to make use of the work in Colombia or those other countries until it expires there). So Commons would use the later of the U.S. date and the country of origin date. If the PRC law states that it expires in 2013 there, then we'd just have to wait until 2058. en-wiki uses only U.S. law, so it could be uploaded there in 2058 regardless of the PRC copyright. Carl Lindberg (talk) 02:59, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I rarely second-guess Carl, but:

Became PD in PRC if considered a collective work: 2013
Becomes PD in the U.S.: 2058
Becomes PD in PRC if considered a personal work: 2074

So it will be eligible for Commons either 2058 or 2074 depending on whether it is considered a collective or individual work, respectively.

Carl, I didn't see anything in your comment about the individual vs. collective aspect. Your "2074 it sounds like" seems to presume it is eligible for Chinese copyright as an individual work. Any basis for that? - Jmabel ! talk 05:30, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did not give an opinion on that -- if that was the question, then not sure. I can't see the image. If the book cover was a derivative work of a painting, and the painting lasts for 50pma, then even if any other added expression became PD in 2013, it's still a derivative work of the under-copyright painting. If the book cover was a work for hire by a particular artist and not derivative of an existing work, then I'd say it did become PD in 2013 in China, and the undeletion date should be 2058. By my reading of the law's translation, the human author retains moral rights in a work for hire, but the economic right owned by the employer would expire 50 years after publication. I'm not sure which applies here (pure work for hire, or derivative work of an existing drawing/painting). Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:11, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Théodore Simon photos

Is File:Theodore Simon ACERVO CDPHA.jpg OK for Commons? It was uploaded in 2013 and was being used as the main infobox image in en:Théodore Simon until quite recently, when it was replaced by a local non-free file uploaded to English Wikipedia as en:File:Simon Théodore.png. The Commons file, however, still is being used by other non-English Wikipedias and Wikidata. If the licensing of the Commons file is OK, then it would be really hard to justify the non-free use of the local English Wikipedia file; on the other hand, if it's not OK and can't be kept, then a non-free could possibly used on English Wikipedia.

It's also not clear whether the non-free uploaded to English Wikipedia really needs to be non-free. There's relevant discussion related to it at en:User talk;Non-free rationale for File:Simon Théodore.png, ut basically the provenance of the file is a bit unclear, The uploader states they got the photo directly from the Binet-Simon Society and agreed to only use a small part of the photo on Wikipedia. The file's description, however, states it was taken around 1905 and the uploader states the photo shows the subject when he was about 20 years younger than the Commons photo. So, there's a good chance the photo is within the public domain and thus would be OK for Commons. It also seems that whatever the agreement the uploader entered into with the source would be a COM:NCR type of arrangements that's not related to the file's copyright status.

Finally, there's another photo of Simon (at least I think it's of Simon) found online here which might also be PD. If it is, then it could used if the other two aren't. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:35, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alamy states that the image in File:Theodore Simon ACERVO CDPHA.jpg is PD, something they would be unlikely to claim if they had a copyright they could enforce. - Jmabel ! talk 21:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Jmabel for finding that. Is that something that should be added to the file's description? -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:06, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Marchjuly: it could go in the "permission" section of the {{Information}} template. - Jmabel ! talk 21:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More than just this one...

Hi everyone, I just marked this image as likely being copyvio. The name of the photographer / copyright holder is mentioned (Pierre Montavon), but there is no indication of a permission, or that the uploader is identical with the copyright holder.

Only when I was finished doing that, I saw that practically all uploads by this user are images by this photographer. Now what? Do I have to mark every single one of these, or is there some easier way to do it? Can someone help please? Thanks, --2003:C0:8F12:CD00:30CB:A7B2:4CA1:F9ED 18:42, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quick searches don't show this image anywhere else on the internet. I think it's reasonable to believe that the uploader could well be Pierre Montavon, considering that they've only uploaded works by Pierre Montavon which don't appear to be online elsewhere. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 23:12, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But the uploader wrote that the source is this book, published by Éditions D+P SA, so it would need a permission by the publisher or by the photographer, whichever owns the copyright. If someone wants to ask the photographer, his contact is there. -- Asclepias (talk) 23:58, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The photographer would normally own the copyright, but there may be other strings attached with the publishing that may not go together with a CC licensing.

The uploader, by the way, clearly is a company account ("company account" ≠ copyright holder) who tried to place their advertising on the German WP and did not disclose paid editing. I would have addressed him about this copyright issue on his German WP talk page, but he has not been active since 2022, so that didn't seem to make much sense. --2003:C0:8F26:1200:C53B:D20D:AE05:D066 12:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've tagged the remaining files with {{No permission since}}; permission from the photographer is needed via COM:VRT. Consigned (talk) 13:16, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Rogers Mall Plan.jpg

Arial Bold (talk · contribs) is claiming ownership of File:Rogers Mall Plan.jpg. I know this is not their work, as it's a map I made way back in 2002 and posted on Angelfire. I have no idea how Arial Bold got a hold of it, as I took down the Angelfire page ages ago and I don't think I've ever shared the map publicly. For that reason, I think their other uploads should be scrutinized as ewll. TenPoundHammer (talk) 04:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like the user does not understand what "own work" means, since File:Rogers Homested.jpg, for example, is (probably accurately) dated 2 January 1900, but claimed as own work, with a license offered using {{Self}}; there is approximately no chance that the user could possibly own a copyright for this image and be in a position to offer a license. But I don't think COM:VP/C is particularly the place to discuss this at any length. It looks like no one has engaged them on their user talk page or DR'd any of these images (some of which are probably OK if the right PD tag is used). @TenPoundHammer, do you want to start that discussion at User talk:Arial Bold, or would you rather someone else did? - Jmabel ! talk 04:14, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jmabel: would you be willing to send the map to deletion too? I'm topic-banned from XFD and I assume that applies to commons as well. TenPoundHammer (talk) 19:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Commons:Deletion requests/File:Rogers Mall Plan.jpg. - Jmabel ! talk 20:34, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jmabel: I strongly think 74.204.120.66 and Arial Bold should be blocked. The former just seems to be Arial Bold logged out, and their talk page is full of negative comments toward me. Between that and the constant copyright problems, they're contributing nothing here. TenPoundHammer (talk) 20:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TenPoundHammer: that is not an appropriate topic for this page. If you want to bring that up, it would be a matter for COM:AN/U, and don't forget to notify the user if you are bringing a complaint there. - Jmabel ! talk 21:03, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright status of photos by French photo studio Harcourt

For a while now, photos by French photo studio Studio Harcourt have been frequently nominated for deletion (by User:Günther Frager, among others). I've noticed in recent discussions that there seems to be quite some confusion about their copyright status and wanted to discuss that here.

One fact that does not seem to be controversial is that several years ago, a French court decided that photos by Studio Harcourt are produced under such tight regulations that they are to be considered collective works as far as French copyright is concerned. Which means that they enter the public domain in France 70 years after first publication. In the US, the URAA restored the copyright for those photos which were still in copyright in France on January 1, 1996. Since France still had a shorter copyright term on that date (50 years + 8 years and 120 days of wartime extensions), Harcourt photos up to 1936 should be in the public domain in the US (as of 2024), while later Harcourt photos are still protected in the US.
In 1991, the French state (minister Jack Lang) bought 5 million Harcourt photos/negatives from 1934 to 1991, see here (article from Le Figaro). One claim that I have seen repeatedly, usually made by User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), is that the French state released all of those photos under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported license. RAN added that claim to the Category:Photographs by Studio Harcourt hereand again here and has repeated it in various deletion request discussions. The article from Le Figaro (which RAN also linked to) does not support that claim of a release under a CC BY 3.0 license (which could have happened no earlier than 2007 since the CC 3.0 licenses were introduced in that year). When I asked RAN (at Commons:Volunteer Response Team/Noticeboard/archive/2023#User:Studio Harcourt) about evidence for his claims, he replied The statement is based on the license they were uploaded with. Which, from the context, apparently refers to several files uploaded by User:Studio Harcourt in 2010 (see Special:ListFiles/Studio Harcourt).

But User:Studio Harcourt is not the French state (but the studio itself), and the photos that were uploaded in 2010 were from the years 1998 to 2008, so not part of the 5 million photos bought by the French state in 1991. I fail to see how several photos uploaded by this user in 2010 with said license can lead to the conclusion that the French state released all of the 5 million photos it bought in 1991 under a CC BY 3.0 license. As I see it, there is still ZERO evidence for this claim, and it is just an unsubstantiated claim.

Another claim which popped up recently is that the Harcourt photos from 1934 to 1991 bought by the French state are not under copyright. This was claimed by User:Tisourcier and User:Ruthven, and User:Asclepias also seems to have adopted it. Apparently it goes back to a VRT ticket by User:Studio Harcourt. As [1] shows, there are two of those. The older Harcourt ticket (2010061710041251), according to User:Ciell, only covers files uploaded by User:Studio Harcourt (“I think it's safe to say that the images uploaded under the specific account are okay, and the release does not cover any future uploads beyond the ones made by User:Studio Harcourt.”), while the newer ticket (2020112910005534), according to User:Ganímedes, "only covers a specific file".

In that ticket ( which is apparently from 2020), a woman named Agnes BROUARD, working for Studio Harcourt Paris and Chargée de la valorisation des collections, writes (confirmed by User:Ruthven on their own user talk page here): « Il me faut vous indiquer que nos archives de 1934 à 1991 sont désormais propriété du Ministère de la Culture, conservées par une entité appelée Médiathèque de l'architecture et du patrimoine et diffusées par l'agence photographique RMN-Grand Palais. Ce fonds photographique n'est pas soumis à un droit patrimonial donc quiconque possède un portrait de l'époque 1934-1991 peut l'utiliser librement et vous pouvez réutiliser un portrait trouvé sur internet. » Which says that the Harcourt archives from 1934 to 1991 are now property of the French Ministry of Culture (as discussed above), and more importantly, that for that archive there is no "patrimonial right" (that is, the economic/proprietary part of copyright as opposed to the moral right to be named as author) and "that anyone who has a portrait from the period 1934-1991 can use it freely and you can reuse a portrait found on the internet" (translation by User:Tisourcier on my user talk page). So basically she is declaring that there are no restrictions at all on Harcourt photos from 1934 to 1991 (except that you have to adhere to the moral rights part of copyright, which means among other things you have to name the author when reproducing the photo).

That sounds great. But is it actually a declaration we can use and rely upon? It is not in any way a formal declaration of the way we usually require for VRT permissions. It is more like just another claim, made by a Harcourt employee in 2020, almost 30 years after the 1934 to 1991 archive had been sold to the French state. Why should what a Harcourt employee claims be considered binding for photos that are actually the property of someone else, namely, the French state? The French state which does claim a copyright over Harcourt photos, compare [2] (there are many more examples)? That copyright claim may not be correct for any Harcourt photos before 1954 because of the collective work status, but taken at face value it is in direct contradiction of the claim made by Madame Brouard. So the "not under copyright" conclusion, based on what Madame Brouard wrote, is speculative and shaky at best. I don't think we can rely upon that for literally millions of images.

So my conclusion from all this is:

There is ZERO evidence for the "CC BY 3.0" claim.
The "not under copyright" claim is speculative and shaky at best.
We should not rely on either of them and instead only rely on the French collective works status plus PD-1996 (for the US) part, which would mean that as of right now, only pre-1937 Harcourt photos are ok for Wikimedia Commons (and, starting in 2033, photos from 1937, in 2034 from 1938 and so on).

We really ought to sort this out. Yann und Ruthven have started closing deleted requests as keep based on these dubious claims (I've explained why I think they're dubious). If we're keeping files, potentially very many of them (5 million photos ...), we ought to be sure about the reasons. At present, we are not. Thoughts? --Rosenzweig τ 09:36, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Just to put in context: The quote comment is the answer to this question, nothing else. I didn't evaluate the CR status because I'm not French speaker and it was not requested anyway. --Ganímedes (talk) 10:54, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I had the perplexity when the DRs I opened were closed. Some were closed with the argument the French government released with CC-BY and others with they are in the public domain, even by the same closing admin. It is still not clear to me who is the copyright holder: Harcourt or the French government (i.e. was the rights transferred when buying the collection). If the latter is the copyright holder the ticket from Harcourt claiming they are in the public domain is void, and the claim that they have CC-BY is dubious as we don't have a VRT ticket from the French government. If Harcourt is still the copyright holder, it would be important to get the context of the email. Once thing is saying you can use the photo freely in your blog without problems (more on the fair use side), and another is you can compile a bunch of photos, create a book a sell it without paying them a dime. I'm not expert in French law, but is it possible to put a work on the public domain? (that is not the same as licensing under CC0). Günther Frager (talk) 14:41, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To answer the French law-related question... if I recall correctly:
- It shouldn't directly affect the legality of hosting the file, since Commons is based in the US, where public domain dedications are clearly possible.
- As I recall, under French law, rights are separated into economic and moral rights, as is the case in many continental European countries. The moral rights are often inalienable (can't be given up), but the economic rights can be given up. (You'll note that CC0 contains a waiver of moral rights insofar as much as that's possible; that would depend on the country.)
- It's often said that, because moral rights cannot be given up, that public domain dedications are impossible in France (or other European countries). But this is highly misleading. "Copyright" is, of course, a term of art in America, as is "public domain," and these concepts exist in slightly different forms in other systems.
- Under French law, moral rights are not only inalienable, they're also perpetual. Anyone who says that the inalienable nature of moral rights under French law means that PD dedications are impossible would have to say that no work is in the public domain in France. But this isn't true; when we talk about the French public domain, we're talking about the expiry of economic rights.
An email which says that a work is in the public domain really must be interpreted either as a permanent waiver of the economic rights or, if not that, then an explicit and perpetual license to all the economic rights to the work — since this is what it means for a work to be in the public domain in France. While the CC0 terms are more detailed and clear, this doesn't mean that such a dedication or license isn't valid in France — except for the general limitation on waiving moral rights.

Also, French law provides for oral and even implied contracts to be considered binding. There's no reason to think that an explicit and clear "public domain dedication" would not be considered as binding. I honestly think that the whole notion that public domain dedications are impossible in many countries is based on confusion between economic and moral rights. Otherwise, you would have to accept that these countries only allow for copyright licenses to be made in a very specific form, above and beyond the formal requirements for other binding contracts or licenses, and that, failing that, the interpretation would be that there is no license at all — and I don't see any reason to believe that — or you'd have to believe that CC0 and other tools have no validity, even with fallback provisions.

Now, CC0 is a bit better, both because it is more explicit and because it contains fallback affirmations relating to non-exercise of waived rights (though these may mean nothing with respect to unwaivable moral rights). But that doesn't mean "this work is dedicated to the public domain; I give up my copyright" can't be interpreted as a valid license or dedication.

Of course, that is entirely separate from whether or not there was an actual message sent by the actual copyright holder to that effect. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 15:47, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Rosenzweig,

Thanks for the ping. I hadn't seen the second ticket from 2020, and that actually looks like a very interesting one. It is a forwarded email (and I prefer direct emails when working with permissions) but my reading from the exchange there (again, with my limited french knowledge) is that it support the statement as shared on @Ruthven's talkpage that you mention. The ticket #2020112910005534 was send to support the release of a single image as @Ganímedes mentions, yes, but with this more general statement in the mail it could in theory support the release for all images 1934-1991. Ciell (talk) 15:08, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also: the issue of the French claim by photo.rmn.fr was mentioned, and links to a court case ruling from 2014. (and this absolutely goes beyond what I can read in French, sorry!) Ciell (talk) 15:19, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is what the Court of Appeals decided, with respect to the ownership of the works:

"[...] Most importantly, the Court held that the photographs bearing the Harcourt logo which had been made by the photographer must be considered collective works, for which the copyrights [droits de l'auteur], including moral rights, are owned by the studio.

"Concretely, the photographer is deprived of all rights to the works, and he is not entitled to anything except for the simple proportional remuneration which the studio agreed to give him upon the sale of his works. More importantly, the decision denied the photographer the moral right to attribution of which no author may in principle be deprived."

So the conclusion here was that photographs taken by an individual photographer working for a studio and, at least in this case, marketed as the studio's work, are collective works, to which all the rights only ever belonged to the studio, not the individual photographer. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 15:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That was the court case which I mention in my very first bullet point above (“One fact that does not seem to be controversial is that several years ago, a French court decided that photos by Studio Harcourt are produced under such tight regulations that they are to be considered collective works as far as French copyright is concerned.”) Note that the case made that decision only for Studio Harcourt photos and not for any studio photo, which is sometimes also claimed (by User:Tisourcier for example in Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Tisourcier). --Rosenzweig τ 16:09, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @D. Benjamin Miller. So that only serves us limited purpose.

@Rosenzweig I am not sure you are linking to the official French government inventory with the link above: here is the same image but in their "Médiathèque du patrimoine et de la photographie"/Open heritage Platform (nonetheless, also with a "C" in front of the mention of the Ministère de la Culture). Any reason why you link, to what looks to me, a third party/private vendor? Ciell (talk) 16:26, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ciell: rmn.fr is the en:Réunion des Musées Nationaux, the (public) agency mentioned by Agnes Brouard as the distributor of the photos (« diffusées par l'agence photographique RMN-Grand Palais »), also at the gouv.fr website you linked to (diffusion GrandPalaisRmn Photo). I'm not sure why the photos are presented on two web sites. --Rosenzweig τ 16:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Their open heritage platforms openend in 2019 (or that's what wikipedia told me), so maybe that's why. Ciell (talk) 16:57, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But maybe you should try and reach out to the French government with your questions, if you doubt the analysis of the previous copyright owner, @Rosenzweig? I have to say it seems almost unfair to expect others to do so, when you think a statement from the original photograph studio is insufficient?

I am not one who wants us to host illegal content, but on the other side we should not want to take things down without having had a conversation with the current rights holder... (or the custodian, whatever you want to call them). Ciell (talk) 17:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll pass on that, if anyone wants to do this, it should be a native speaker, possibly also resident of the country. Though RAN had announced he'd get in touch if I remember this correctly. Maybe he did get a meaningful answer? --Rosenzweig τ 18:20, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosenzweig: @Ciell: I confirm what D. Benjamin Miller said about the French court case of PIERRE-ANTHONY X VS. HARCOURT linked above. The judges (the judgement has been confirmed by the court of appeals) mention interesting facts, namely:

At Harcourt, the photographers yield their copyright to the studio in exchange of 10% on the sales, in which the photo is sold as a collective work.
The photos published by Harcourt must be considered as collective works.
The moral rights of the original author do not hold anymore, as the moral rights are now owned by a group of authors.

This last statement may be a surprise, given all the discussions about CC0 in France, but it is justified by the French law 113-2 alinéa 3 of the Code de la Propriété Intellectuelle. A collective work can be initiated by a company (here it's Harcout), and the consequent publication under a collective name makes the work of the single photographer indistinguishable from the work of the group. --Ruthven (msg) 15:23, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, why not let several French contributors involved by PD-France and Studio Harcourt case, precising the legal aspects and confirm the data about it ? The "collective work" judgement is one the main points, but the PD official statement by the author Studio Harcourt at the root as the author of these photographs (VTR), is clearly relevant to determine that those published between 1954 and 1992 are also PD-France too. Edit : copyright mentions of RMN website are not 100% reliable (copyvios). Tisourcier (talk) 11:39, 18 July 2024 (UTC)Tisourcier (talk) 11:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, more than unreliable, RMN copyright claims are copyfraud or completely absurd. RMN has never been the copyright holder of the documents they host, they are only the caretaker. Sometimes, they claim a copyright because they digitize the work, but it is not even always the case. They even claim a copyright on works digitized by other people or institutions. I once wrote to them about that, but never got an answer. Copyfraud is not punished by French law, so plenty people and organizations claim a copyright which has no value (i.e. copyright claims on old books recently reprinted, etc.). Yann (talk) 12:55, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not just RMN, it's also the Médiathèque du patrimoine et de la photographie of the French Ministère de la Culture, see the the link provided by Ciell above. And yes, we have seen some French institutions making dubious copyright claims, namely the Bibliothèque nationale. That does not mean that everything they claim is automatically false and can be disregarded. Both the RMN and the French ministry making these copyright claims is just another small sign, another piece of evidence regarding the question we have, contributing to the doubt about the “not under copyright” claim. --Rosenzweig τ 17:16, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The statement by Harcourt is just that: a statement. A claim. An opinion. While Studio Harcourt can be considered the author of these collective works, they sold the bulk of their earlier production (5 million images from 1934 to 1991) to the French state. Presumably they sold them including the rights (copyrights, usage rights) to them, or else it wouldn't make much sense that the French state is distributing these images by the RMN agency. So the statement comes from an institution which authored these collective works, but (as we must assume) no longer holds the rights to them. The statement we're talking about claims that millions of images from the years up to and including 1991 are not under copyright, or « pas soumis à un droit patrimonial ». The only way 1991 portrait photographs can be in the public domain (or equivalent) in France is if the rights holder explicitly released them into the PD, put them under a CC0 license or similar. For such a thing, we require either a clear public statement from someone who is clearly the rights holder, or an explicit permission/consent text of the kind available at the COM:VRT page, something along the lines of I hereby affirm that I am/represent ..., the creator/sole owner of the exclusive copyright of the work(s) as shown here, and have legal authority in my capacity to release the copyright of that work. I agree to publish the above-mentioned content under the following free license: ... etc. etc.

Since this is about potentially very many images (5 million photos), we absolutely should have such a clear declaration. Especially for the protection of our re-users. But we have NONE of that here. There is no clear declaration of who the owner of copyright is, nor who released them under what license. There is just a vague statement that there is no copyright and anyone can use the photos freely, by a person of unclear legal status as far as the copyrights to the photos are concerned. That cannot be acceptable. --Rosenzweig τ 12:16, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but it would be much better if you stop making false statements. We have a declaration by a person in charge that these images are in the public domain. Why do you always say the opposite? Yann (talk) 12:58, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Yann: Please refrain from such accusations. Accusing me of "making false statements" is basically calling me a liar, and I don't appreciate being insulted in that way. What we do have (in ticket 2020112910005534, the French text is above) is a claim, a statement by someone apparently working for Studio Harcourt in 2020, with the title or post of Chargée de la valorisation des collections. Valorisation translating to something like exploitation (in an economic sense) or promotion. So if she is “in charge” of anything, it's not copyright questions or legal questions in general, it's the promotion or economic exploitation of the Studio Harcourt collections. Which since the sale in 1991 do not anymore include the older 1934 to 1991 photos we're talking about here. It's in no way clear if she is in any way authorized to make copyright-related statements for Studio Harcourt, and it's not in any way clear if Studio Harcourt even still has any rights to those older photos. Though it must be assumed the French state acquired those rights along with the photos themselves, because why would you buy such a massive amount of photos without the proper rights to utilize them? Her text is also not a “declaration”, at least not one of the kind we require for VRT permissions (as outlined in my previous post in this thread). So whatever her statement is, it's not a sufficient basis to declare these 5 million photos to be in the public domain or “not under copyright” or « pas soumis à un droit patrimonial ». --Rosenzweig τ 17:16, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosenzweig: Who would be more knowledgeable about the copyright status of these images than someone working for Studio Harcourt? I am quite fed up with people (not only you) pretending to know more that the very people employed by the institution(s) concerned by the documents. Yann (talk) 12:29, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Yann: That would be someone actually declaring that they are the owner/holder of the copyright and authorized to make such statements, as outlined in more detail somewhere else in this thread. Not just anybody working for a company which may or may not be still holding rights to these photos and vaguely saying that there is no copyright for them and and anybody can use them. You may think that is enough. I don't. --Rosenzweig τ 12:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"why would you buy such a massive amount of photos without the proper rights to utilize them?" Presumably you'd acquire some sort of rights to reproduce, but not necessarily rights that were tantamount to owning the copyright. Plus, of course, eventually they will come out of copyright.

FWIW, it is pretty common for archives and libraries to acquire large collections without acquiring copyrights. I wouldn't presume anything either way about this case without some sort of evidence. - Jmabel ! talk 20:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree with Rosenzweig that the situation is unclear, I would urge us not to rush to deleting, especially because it is such a large set - rushing into this will actually do more bad than good. As @Tisourcier mentions: please get French contributors involved to figure this out. Commons is not an island in the big wiki-ocean, and we as admins should not be tasking decisions (like deleting images at this scale) that effect the other projects lightly, but with due consideration. Ciell (talk) 16:55, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Presumably they sold them including the rights (copyrights, usage rights) to them, or else it wouldn't make much sense that the French state is distributing these images by the RMN agency."

I don't see why we should presume that they specifically assigned the copyright, rather than giving a license. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 19:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, if that is what is happened, we would need a confirmation as well. Also a clarification who would actually be the copyright owner and who would be authorized to put the photos in the public domain (or equivalent, or under a free license) and if that happened. All clearly and unmistakably spelled out. We cannot keep so many (and potentially many more) images with just a "maybe, maybe not" assumption. Per the precautionary principle, such an unclear situation would mean the files would need to be deleted and no new uploads accpted. --Rosenzweig τ 06:22, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Info The French Ministry of Culture bought in 1989 the negatives and client records from 1934 until 1979. Later in 1991 during the bankruptcy of Studio Harcourt the Association française pour la diffusion du patrimoine photographique (AFDPP) acquired the negatives from 1980 until 1991 [3]. The source gives very precise dates on the acquisitions, so it might even be possible to find public records about them. Günther Frager (talk) 18:36, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Günther Frager, beyond the acquisition: the question on the table now, is about the correct copyright status for all of these these images. Are the images Public Domain, available under CC BY-SA, or does the French state claim full copyright? Ciell (talk) 18:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ciell: yes, the main issue is determine who owns the copyright, but this information is still relevant. If the source is right, on November 14, 1989 Jack Lang and Studio Harcourt signed a document and we might get a copy of it and see whether the patrimonial rights were transferred or not. The other point is that the negatives form 1980-1991 were acquired during a bankruptcy and might have different conditions. I don't know about French intellectual property law, but in some countries intellectual property is treated as a normal asset when a company is liquidated. Günther Frager (talk) 19:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One interesting fact in that text (thanks for the link) is that the current Studio Harcourt Paris company may be not identical with the "old" Studio Harcourt, but some succesor company (it's not entirely clear though, they call it le nouveau studio Harcourt-Paris). Which makes me wonder if the current company still holds any (intellectual property) rights to the assets of the "old" company, or not. --Rosenzweig τ 06:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see that Tisourcier is busy canvassing on various user talk pages in this matter. One thing he mentions elsewhere is that Studio Harcourt would still be the author as far as the moral right (to be named as author etc.) of French IP law is concerned. I agree, since the photos were declared by the court to be collective works, there is no human author, but this (corporate) collective author.

BUT we're not talking about the moral right here, but about the "patrimonial right" (that is, the economic/proprietary part of French IP law as opposed to the moral right). And that is still very much unclear until we get a clearly spelled out statement (as detailed elsewhere in this thread) by whoever is the actual owner of that right, or was the owner at the point in time when the claimed release into the public domain (or similar) took place. --Rosenzweig τ 12:00, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosenzweig, @Ciell and others- here is a link and translation below of a portion of a different webpage of the same Agency provided by @Günther Frager above that may be relevant: https://mediatheque-patrimoine.culture.gouv.fr/mentions-legales-conditions-generales-dutilisation-et-credits [4]

"All images and photographs on this site are the property of the State. The photographic credit has the following: © Ministry of Culture (France), Médiathèque de l'architecture et du patrimoine (MAP), RMN-GP distribution. Any non-commercial reuse must be the subject of a request for authorization at the following address: mediatheque.patrimoine@culture.gouv.fr

Similarly, for any commercial and/or editorial reuse of images, please make a request to: mediatheque.patrimoine@culture.gouv.fr

Unless otherwise stated, MAP images are disseminated by the Photographic Agency of the Meeting of National Museums and the Grand Palais (Rmn-Gp)." (emphasis added)' -- Ooligan (talk) 18:42, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link and translation. So they say that all images they show are the property of the state, which is basically what we already mentioned above. The question is if they're correct of if this is some sort of copyfraud as mentioned by Tisourcier and Yann above. --Rosenzweig τ 06:53, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Jack-Thomas-Nicholas-Profile.jpg

While developing the enwiki article for said individual, I see that a photo of them has recently been uploaded by a user account named in such a way as to suggest they may be related to the late subject. However, they have declared the photo as "own work", without indicating how this is the case. I have queried this with them but had no response. I wonder if they believe that simply having possession of the photograph, or being the nearest decedent entitles them to the copyright. The subject died nearly 50 years ago and looks much younger in the photo than the age of their death, so while it's plausible it could be PD, I am unsure how best to proceed or verify the claimed status. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:56, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it could be the user's own work, if the user is old enough to have taken the picture.

Being in possession of the photograph has nothing to do with owning the copyright, but being the nearest descendant of the creator of the photo often does. Of course, even if the uploader is related to the subject, that doesn't indicate any relation to the photographer. On the other hand, the photo could be in the public domain. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 18:20, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The image does not appear online, so that is a strong suggestion that it derives from either their own collection, or a family member took the image. We do have {{Cc-by-sa-4.0-heirs}} as the preferred license when a family member has taken an image. and the uploader is claiming to be the heir to the copyrights. We are are not forensic detectives, so we rely on good faith and due diligence via Tineye and Google Image that no one else is making an active copyright claim. --RAN (talk) 18:54, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Johndnicholas as uploader. - Jmabel ! talk 19:08, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The image shows the subject looking very similar, and indeed with the same attire, as he did when winning the 1946 FA cup (of which an image can be found on google). It also, in my opinion, appears to be a professional looking photo, rather than one from a family album. The uploader also uploaded a cigarette card, File:Jack-nicholas-cigarette-card-1.jpg, and also claimed this as own work and as the license holder - are you also prepared to believe this to be true as well, D. Benjamin Miller and RAN? I think my query is fair, and also that the uploader has no other track record we can refer to. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:34, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent research, add the link to the new image taken at the same event. Now it would fall under PD-UK, I believe we have made a reasonable enquiry to see if anyone was named as a copyright holder. --RAN (talk) 19:58, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Except, {{PD-UK}} is not a valid license, so we'd either be looking at {{PD-old-70}} (if the author is/was known and deceased prior to 1954) or {{PD-UK-unknown}} (more likely) if the original author cannot be determined. I am making a reasonable assumption the photo in question was taken c.1946 but only based on similar appearance from an alternate dated photo. I asked here to seek some further insight on the best way to proceed, in the absence of acknowledgement from the uploader. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When downloading an image, what do I need to include?

Hello, I am writing a "guide to growing roses". I am downloading images to compliment the text. I have other sources for images, but some are difficult to find. My understanding (from what I've read) is that the images are free to use as long as I credit the original contributor. I'm try to figure out what I need to include. I've copied this by clicking on the download link:

Attribution: Jerzy Opioła, CC BY-SA 4.0 <https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0>, via Wikimedia Commons
File URL: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Gymnosporangium_sabinae_a1_%282%29.jpg
Page URL: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gymnosporangium_sabinae_a1_(2).jpg

The only alterations I might make is size. The image will NOT be altered other than that. Can I just add the Attribution to the credits or do I need to include the 2 links as well? Also, do I copy & paste the image into my ebook? The download link just gave me the above information.

Thx for your help. Brigitte Merlin&Mommy (talk) 20:23, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Merlin&Mommy: The credit as cited above is fine. I took the liberty of adding line breaks. You should probably link the page; it's not necessary to separately link the file, since that can easily be reached from the page.

You download the image itself exactly like any other image in a browser. Typically that is a right-click and "Save as...". - Jmabel ! talk 20:39, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for the information and the quick response. Merlin&Mommy (talk) 22:27, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is direct usage of PD-old ever correct?

I'm having an interesting conversation on my talk page with User:Aristeas & User:W.carter on my talk page about public domain and that reminded me about a question I had before: Is direct usage of {{PD-old}} (and all variants) ever correct? Shouldn't these all be wrapped in either {{PD-art}} or {{PD-scan}} (or related templates)? A search gives plenty of examples. Multichill (talk) 19:04, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ever? Well, in that case, which wrapper would apply to, say, File:Steamboat_Willie_(1928)_by_Walt_Disney.webm? --Geohakkeri (talk) 19:31, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

{{PD-scan}}, someone had to scan all the frames to make a digital copy out of it. Multichill (talk) 19:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your question is basically, "Is a PD-old-X tag sufficient, or must there be another tag relating to the digitization of the item?"

Anyway, the answer is that a PD-old-X tag is sufficient. The other wrappers are used for clarity in some situations, but they have never been mandatory. There is a reason why, for instance, they are not included as part of the upload wizard.

PD-scan explicitly says it is only for limited use: "This tag is designed for use where there may be a need to assert that any enhancements (eg brightness, contrast, colour-matching, sharpening) are in themselves insufficiently creative to generate a new copyright. It can be used where it is unknown whether any enhancements have been made, as well as when the enhancements are clear but insufficient."

PD-Art, in my personal opinion, should only really be used when there is a claim of copyright in the digitization from the source which we are explicitly rebutting. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 19:47, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you think PD-old-X is sufficient? It applies to the original work (painting, photograph, etc.), but we have a digital copy of it. That's a very similar, but different work.

The fact that we always did something in way doesn't mean that it's the best way. We can improve things. We also allowed {{PD}} and later realized that was not a good idea and split it out in clearer templates. Multichill (talk) 19:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"That's a very similar, but different work." No, it's not a distinct work, at least not usually, and that's my point.

In the vast majority of countries, there is a standard of originality which precludes mere digitization from giving rise to a new copyright. Even the classic example of what Commons users would often cite as a "sweat of the brow" country, the UK (and it was hardly clear even at the time of the NPG controversy), has clearly rejected the notion of copyright in non-original reproductions in recent case law. The EU copyright directive in 2019 prohibited the recognition of copyright or related/ancillary rights in faithful reproductions, too.

PD-Art is mostly used for paintings. As someone who happens to do some reproduction photography for work, I know that it can sometimes be technically difficult to photograph and reproduce certain objects (such as paintings), even if there is no creativity involved at all. But for book scans, the situation is even clearer. Frankly, if we are talking about "sweat of the brow," scanning on a flatbed (or similar) is extremely easy and simple; it is an activity which doesn't even generate a drop of the proverbial "sweat." After all, the basic questions of positioning, camera settings and so on hardly enter the picture at all. When I use a flatbed scanner, I can choose very little more than what bit depth and format my output will be.

PD-scan is about where adjustments have been made to the digitized file, but where these adjustments are unlikely to contain enough new matter to be considered a copyrightable work — much like how I can adjust various camera settings when photographing a 2-D object. That, I think, is a fair thing to clarify.

But to even acknowledge a claim of copyright on mere conversion to a digital format itself (as in, a normal scan) seems wrong to me. I don't think any country really does recognize a copyright on such scans (and certainly I'd say none should). And giving even the slightest validation to such frivolous claims strikes me as improper. It implies to the user the potential of an latent "infectious" copyright arising from any break in the chain of custody from the first digitizer to the final user — really, it calls into doubt the existence of any digital public domain in the first place.

I don't think any country has such a law (i.e., one which would imply independent copyright exists in all digitizations qua digitizations), but any country that did, and which took it seriously at all, would be one whose policy is so diametrically opposed to the purpose of this site or any other public domain media repository that I don't think it would be worth giving the honor of a mention on our pages. Just my two cents.

Also, to give an analogy, if you think that a new copyrighted work can arise from putting a piece of paper on a flatbed scanner and pressing a button, then I don't see any reason why having imagemagick convert a TIFF to a JPEG wouldn't result in a new copyright, either.

D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 20:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For 2D artworks it should be tl:PD-art|PD-old-100-expired or PD-art|PD-old-auto-//expired//|deathyear=

see tl:PD-art-tag, Commons:Reuse of PD-Art photographs

You often use tl:Licensed-PD-art... This is not necessary especially since new European legislation of 2021, en:Directive on Copyright in the Digital Single Market#Article 14

I corrected the template as I did before in similar cases.

I am with Aristeas, the institution claims copyright sa-by, which they have not, clear copyfraud, as many institutions do e.g. Alte Pinakothek. The few correct licenses are used now by Gemäldegalerie und Städel, by the way many user-photographers also claim copyrights of faithful 2D reproductions, which they have not and I'm tired by correcting. Oursana (talk) 21:05, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, despite the fact that the principle that reproductions shouldn't generally be copyrightable, if there is a free putative license, don't remove it. As Licensed-PD-Art says, in many countries, there is no copyright, but in a country where there might exist such a copyright, the free license is a fallback: "In many jurisdictions, faithful reproductions of two-dimensional public domain works of art are not copyrightable. The Wikimedia Foundation's position is that these works are not copyrightable in the United States (see Commons:Reuse of PD-Art photographs). In these jurisdictions, this work is actually in the public domain and the requirements of the digital reproduction's license are not compulsory." Even though reproductions are clearly not copyrightable in Germany now (since such ancillary copyrights in reproductions are invalid under the new legislation), the additional license is still of (theoretical) use to a user in another country. There is no reason to remove this, even though, as Licensed-PD-Art says, this is now even more superfluous than before. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 21:13, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think I largely agree with D. Benjamin Miller. "Work" implies copyrightable material; it's a term of the Berne Convention. Things which are not "works" are not copyrightable (or at least are not governed by that treaty). Our PD-Art policy is basically that a photographic reproduction of a painting is not a separate work but a copy, regardless of laws elsewhere which may be different. I typically will use that tag if it's not my photo, i.e. someone else made that photo. Given that law elsewhere might be different, it's good to emphasize that for re-users, or authors of the photo wondering why it was uploaded. Licensed-PD-Art is also useful, if applicable, in case there are jurisdictions which are different -- the US (by court decision) and EU (by directive) now explicitly say no, but that's far from being worldwide. I don't think lack of PD-Art is a problem; it can always be added if it's more precise. The only copyright our policy really cares about is that of the painting (or other underlying work), and PD-old covers that. If it's a photographic reproduction taken from a distance, it's always fine to add the PD-Art tag.

PD-scan I typically only use when it seems like an entity is claiming copyright on a scan, possibly with non-copyrightable enhancements/fixes, and we want to point out why we would disagree with such a claim. It's also making a copy with no new expression, though unlike photos it should be valid basically anywhere in the world. It usually does not need to be emphasized if nobody is trying to claim a copyright on it. Making a print from a negative is not a copyrightable act, neither is scanning it, neither is converting file formats, neither is scaling down. We don't need to constantly point out that basic manipulations don't generate new copyrights. Carl Lindberg (talk) 21:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As both the PD-scan template itself and Commons:Reuse of PD-Art photographs make clear, simple photomechanical reproductions (e.g., flatbed scans) wouldn't have qualified for copyright even where faithful reproduction photos did.

Also, besides the US, EU and UK, many other countries' thresholds of originality make it clear that faithful reproductions wouldn't qualify for copyright. Also, I would surmise that the majority of PD-Art template invocations are probably on images digitized in the US, EU or UK (given how many items are held by institutions there). The whole idea behind PD-Art to begin with arose when the NPG (UK) accused Commons of copyright infringement. As more recent case law has shown, claims to copyright in reproductions are unjustified under UK law, too, but the whole idea behind the template was to be a special warning/disclaimer/clarification at least mainly related to images digitized by entities that might make an actual claim.

I'm not saying we need to mass-remove PD-Art templates. But we should also probably acknowledge that they are a lot less practically necessary as a clarification for images digitized by institutions in countries where there is no possibility of copyright in faithful reproductions — including the US, EU and UK. Even if it might theoretically be possible to sue for infringement in some (hypothetical) country where reproductions are per se copyrightable, I would be shocked if any institution in a country where such reproductions are not copyrightable at all actually did that. This is different from talking about term length variation; works that are expired in their country of origin are often still valuable in other countries and the copyright holder will often still pursue cases. But where there is no work potentially subject to copyright at all in the source country, that's a different story from a practical perspective. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 03:14, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suing in another country would depend on how much money was at stake, usually. If it's enough and they could, they would (and which countries it makes sense in could be different in a few decades). It may be less likely if they don't expect a copyright in their home country, and unsure if rule of the shorter term could also come into play in that situation, but it is possible. Some countries have treated that type of photo differently than a scan in the past, so it's possible they could again down the road (though hopefully will continue to coalesce around them just being copies). Agreed that recent law changes have made the distinction much less likely to matter, but laws can change the other way too. And some people naturally think they own the copyright in their own photos, without thinking that there are edge cases where copyright may not exist, so the tag can also be useful from that educational standpoint, if photos of that type get uploaded here without the photographer's "permission". The idea over PD-Art started with the Bridgeman case actually, where the first decision actually did use UK law, and while the second one did not, it still referenced it and made arguments based on it, which then led to further opinions from UK entities (which also differed). The template existed here well before the NPG case. The WMF policy also slightly predated that lawsuit. Carl Lindberg (talk) 12:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, you're right about the history of the template. I'm certainly not saying it's wrong or can't be educational — just saying it is less useful. Especially considering how tenuous the copyright claims are in the first place in most countries, I would be shocked if such a lawsuit actually happened. I'm not saying that it's any less theoretically possible in this hypothetical scenario — just that I would be very surprised if it happened. I would also be shocked if countries moved towards giving a copyright to faithful photos of 2D PD artwork. Things have globally moved only in one direction for a reason. And the internet is, I think, a large part of that. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 15:26, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

w:en:File:'Cyparissus', copper and brass sculpture by --Bumpei Akaji--, 1968, --Hawaii State Art Museum--.JPG

This is a sculpture authored by w:en:Bumpei Akaji, in which the involved image is under a non-free tag at English Wikipedia. However, the sculpture's date is 1968. If 1968 is found to be the sculpture's date of public display, it may be P.D. courtesy of {{PD-US-no notice}} (as a pre-1978 work), but I need more third party opinions regarding this (especially if it might be under sculptor's private hands and was only publicly-displayed in the Hawai'ian museum after 1990, which may make it not OK for Commons if ever). JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 03:22, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There would be a separate copyright in the image, even if the sculpture is not copyrighted. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 03:27, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@D. Benjamin Miller I reinstated the PD-user tag of the uploader that was removed by another user. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 03:30, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Artwork at Times Square station

Rather problematic bunch of photos. --Geohakkeri (talk) 12:52, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For artwork later than 1978, and photos focusing on the artwork itself, probably. Most of the photos directly in that category seem fine, though the subcategories less so. Carl Lindberg (talk) 12:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

though the subcategories less so Yes, I mostly meant them. --Geohakkeri (talk) 12:58, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Brazil FOP

There seems to be a difference between Template:FoP-Brazil (written in 2012) and COM:FOP Brazil (likely more recent). It would be good if the two were aligned. Enhancing999 (talk) 13:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Enhancing999 I don't see any difference with respect to the intended meaning. DarwIn made a substantial change in 2017 by adding a summarized version of the Brazilian courts' regulation on Brazilian FoP. The regulation itself, IMO, is parallel to the regulations imposed by Belgian and Dutch FoP rules. Per COM:FOP Belgium, the image should depict a Belgian building or monument as it is found there, and reusers should not edit out the surroundings like the sky and the grass/ground/part of roadway. Per COM:FOP Netherlands, Dutch legal literature and jurisprudences tend to be strict in the three-step test: an edited image of a building or statue that crops out the entirety of the surroundings is already a breach of the FoP privilege and is already causing undue damage to normal economic exploitation rights of the artists or architects. Same goes to the Brazilian FoP: the listed cases at COM:FOP Brazil show that courts tend to declare guilty verdicts to re-users if they edited out the surroundings. Worse, a guilty verdict awaits to the re-user if he/she/they did not made an effort to cite the name of the sculptor/architect/whoever was the author of the involved landmark/work. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 14:00, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The template currently says "as long as the artwork is accessory". If so, most files in Category:Meteoro (Brasília) should be deleted. No idea how this relates to the Netherlands, but the question here is only about Brazil. Enhancing999 (talk) 14:05, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Enhancing999 in my opinion, "accessory" here does not mean "de minimis" or "incidental"; rather, it means the work should just be a component of the image, not the only component of the image. Other components like the sky and the ground should stay, not edited or cropped out. Very similar to Dutch and Belgian versions, implementing the Berne three-step test. Perhaps DarwIn may provide more comprehensive explanation though as they are very active in content coming from Portuguese-speaking countries like Brazil. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 14:13, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Meteoro de bruno giorgi.jpg is compliant IMO, as the elements/components like the building at the background and the water are still there. Remove those through image manipulation – so that only the sculpture remains – and you can no longer be "defended" by Brazilian FoP in accordance with existing Brazilian jurisprudences. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 14:16, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see a conflict between the two. They're consistent in that an element cannot be detached from its surroundings and used by itself, but anything other than that is fine. I find that a large majority of the Meteoro pictures are fine. File:Meteoro de bruno giorgi.jpg is probably borderline but I feel like most judges would find it to be OK (even more so considering it's government property, in this case). I think that the template and the information page are both consistent with law and jurisprudence here. Rkieferbaum (talk) 13:03, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Commons:Deletion requests/File:Priscilla l Teaser Trailer.webm

Could i get some comments on this? Trade (talk) 18:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Obtaining permission for iconic/historic photos

Greetings, Currently there's a large NFCC debate on enwiki regarding en:File:Shooting of Donald Trump.webp, a photograph taken by journalist Evan Vucci and published by the Associated Press and Business Insider.

Due to the historic nature of the event and the composition of the photo, it's been immediately dubbed "iconic" and "historic" across social media and enwiki editors agree, therefore touching off the NFCC debate: can we use this photo despite its copyright and licensing status?

But I'm curious about another approach: how difficult is it for a WMF representative to approach the copyright holders and obtain a free license for such media? Is this a difficult or unfeasible proposal? It seems that rather than twisting ourselves into knots to justify non-free usage, if the copyright holder just grants a Creative Commons license in the first place, we put it on Commons and be done forever.

In these days of social media, the cat's already out of the bag--any memed photo is circulated endlessly and copyright be damned. It almost seems worthwhile, in an exceptional case like this, for the author and copyright holder to put it in our hands and acknowledge that this information is already "free" anyway. Elizium23 (talk) 21:00, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given that it was a professional photo taken by a journalist working for a newspaper/agency, I think it's incredibly unlikely that the photographer or agency would release it under a free license. A news agency wouldn't give up commercial rights to such an important photo. Fortunately ENWP is able to get educational value from it via Fair Use (depending on the outcome of the discussion - I expect it will be kept on en:Trump raised-fist photographs). Consigned (talk) 22:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a strange way to phrase it -- they wouldn't be giving up their rights, they'd be granting that right to everyone else whilst retaining it for themselves. But that's how it feels, isn't it?

I may have failed corporate capitalism in 7th grade, but I honestly can't discern how someone like the A.P. could lose money by granting a free license on a single photo. I suppose that, within Vucci's lifetime, they could put it in 50 museums and millions of tourists would flock to those museums to see a photo that can't be had anywhere else.

I have an alternative plan, though. Let's build a time machine, put the photo on a USB, and send Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger back to 1954. He'll assassinate Vucci's parents, and smuggle the photo back into this timeline as public domain.

Alternatively, we could select a time traveler to somehow manipulate Vucci into working for the White House Press Corps, thus guaranteeing the Public Domain status of his future photo.

Seriously though, someday there will be a maverick news agency who decides that the cachet of "our photo illustrates a very important encyclopedia article" is worth granting a free license to a few bits of media. Unfortunately, since we prohibit any promotional activity, nobody would notice. Elizium23 (talk) 22:24, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the time machine plans would meet COM:L, I'd say go for it!

AP would lose money because instead of everyone paying them to print their photo in articles, books, etc, they could grab it for free from Commons. If they were to donate a photo for educational/historical reasons, I imagine it would be for noncommercial use only, which wouldn't be allowed here.

In a perfect world something like WikiNews would be able to send a photographer up there with the pros to capture important photos with free licenses. There are a lot of professional photographers who take great photos of major events and post them here - I remember seeing a bunch of great Eurovision photos - but unfortunately none of these folks were next to Evan Vucci a few days ago. Consigned (talk) 22:37, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding to my comment, I agree with Jmabel below that the photographer is entitled to make a living from their work. Even if a Wikimedian took this photo, it would be completely understandable for them to want to retain rights (commercial or otherwise). Consigned (talk) 13:01, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's that "retain rights" phrasing again. What rights do you believe they're relinquishing with a free license? Because Creative Commons are still "copyright, all rights reserved", while still licensing those rights to others. So perhaps you're thinking of "exclusive rights" or the right to earn $X.00? I'm confused. Elizium23 (talk) 13:55, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elizium23 for CC-BY and CC-BY-SA licenses, those are not of "all rights reserved"-type. Those are rather "some rights reserved"-type, since by allowing images to be licensed in a way that commercial uses are permitted without permission, a major right has been relinquished. See the templates like {{CC-BY-SA-4.0}} that indicate "some rights reserved". Better worded: "@2024 JWilz. Some rights reserved." JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 14:00, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By retain, I mean retain exclusive rights, rather than relinquish (edited). Effectively, granting a free license to Commons gives anyone in the world commercial re-use rights, severely impacting the photographer's ability to make a living from the photo (though, as Jmabel can attest to based on his userpage, many commercial re-users still engage in commercial licensing for photos that have been released under a free license). Consigned (talk) 14:09, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As nice as it would be, the odds of the photo being freely licensed are slim to none. AP and Evan Vucci would not want to give up the full rights to such a photo. You can try reaching out though, wish you luck. PascalHD (talk) 01:37, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WMF's interests in the matter as an institution are presumably met by the ability to use it on a "fair use" basis in en-wiki, etc.

I'm all for the "free culture" movement, but I'm also for having people who make a living as a photographer, writer, etc. It is not reasonable to approach someone who, in the line of their work, has stumbled onto a very valuable asset and expect them to give it away. - Jmabel ! talk 03:52, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The answer is simple. By default, there are no free licenses, and all reuses of the work (which don't fall under exceptions such as fair use) require a paid license. Once you grant a broad, free license, including one such as CC BY-SA 4.0, a paid license is no longer required so long as the conditions are complied with — which, in many cases, is trivial. Of course, the CC BY-SA 4.0 licensor doesn't give up the copyright, and still has the right to make other license arrangements, but the paid licenses which are the core of the AP image service's business would be required in far, far fewer situations. The value of owning a copyright in an image, for a normal business (which is what AP is), is generally defined by the profit that can be made from licensing. This applies especially for a press photography service — these businesses are mainly concerned with selling photo licenses. Other businesses often release some items under a free license, but, in those cases, the licensing of the images is not the main business model. In any case, it's the AP you need to convince, not any of us.

But to answer your original question: "Is this a difficult or unfeasible proposal?" It depends. Releasing this kind of image under a free license, especially at the peak of its newsworthiness, just because someone asked very nicely, is beyond-pipe-dream-level unrealistic. It is so far-fetched that I find it hard to understand how you might think it would happen. But I will actually will (sort of) disagree with @Consigned here; it's at least somewhat plausible to imagine the AP giving up rights to this photo. And the photo could even be released under a free license! All it would take is a tremendous amount of money to buy the copyright to the photo from the AP. Of course, the photos are not really "for sale" in the normal sense, but everything has its price, and I suspect that if you offered a sum that went far beyond the potential lifetime revenue from licensing the photo (I say "far" in order to factor in the cachet of being on record as owning an iconic photo) that the AP might take you up on your offer. Just send an email to AP President and CEO Daisy Veerasingham (her address can be found online) about your big-money offer and let us know once you've closed the deal. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 15:35, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How can I upload http://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/32312. The file is Public Domain...

Would someone help me upload http://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/32312 from Florida Memory? The file is public domain, yet I can not upload it. Thanks! Sirberus (talk) 11:55, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sirberus: Could you be more specific about what you tried to do that isn't working (and what exactly failed, e.g. error message, etc.)? - Jmabel ! talk 19:13, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot get the public domain nature to register on the upload process. It locks up on the license aspect - how do I put this PD nature in so I can upload the photo? Sirberus (talk) 00:55, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sirberus: You don't mention what upload tool you are using, and they vary for how you indicate a license or PD tag, but the relevant tag is {{PD-FLGov}}. If you are using Special:UploadWizard (which I'll admit I never use myself so I might be wrong here) say it is not your own work. From what I've seen, it is overly rigid if you say it is "not protected by copyright law", but if you use "Enter a different license in Wikitext format" you can enter a tag like this.

Pinging @Sannita (WMF) (or really anyone else who uses this tool routinely): does that seem to you like a correct understanding? In particular, am I correct that if you say it is "not protected by copyright law" there is no way to add a specific tag like this? It's certainly not immediately apparent. - Jmabel ! talk 03:24, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sirberus The way to indicate this in UploadWizard is:

Click on "This is someone else's work and is free to share"
Click on "Enter a different license in wikitext format"
Enter {{PD-FLGov}} as text in the form below

Hope this helps. Sannita (WMF) (talk) 17:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the tag should be {{Attribution-FLGov-PhotoColl}} (which is specific to Florida Memory)... there is a specific clause of Florida state law that applies to that collection, separate from the "general" release of Florida government works. Talk about obscure, lol. Jarnsax (talk) 02:01, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jarnsax, Thank you for that valuable information about this specific tag and relevant specific state law- https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/257.35 [5] for the "Division of Library and Information Services of the Department of State the Florida State Archives" -- Ooligan (talk) 04:55, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ooligan: Yeah, Florida Memory is an odd (and AFAIK unique) case... the normal FL-Gov tag applies to works of the Florida state government (the "sunshine" law) but Florida Memory (the "State Photographic Collection") holds a lot of works that were created by someone else. They are "PD" because the state owns the copyrights (for stuff that isn't PD from age) and pretty much specifically says so... they ask for attribution, but that's probably not an enforceable "license". Jarnsax (talk) 06:07, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Sirberus (talk) 18:57, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sannita (WMF): So am I correct that clicking the accurate "not protected by copyright law" does not allow you to accurately enter this tag? - Jmabel ! talk 19:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jmabel It would in case is PD-old (first published in USA before 1929 or author died since 70+ years), PD-USGov, and PD-NASA, which we determined were the more frequent. All other PD versions are to be put in wikitext format (there are just too many PD templates, and listing them all would have been unfeasible). Sannita (WMF) (talk) 09:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sannita (WMF): I'm still not following that. Are you saying that when someone selects "not protected by copyright law" they do get the chance to manually enter wikitext for a tag like {{PD-FLGov}}? = Jmabel ! talk 17:09, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jmabel No, they don't. If someone selects "not protected by copyright law", they would be given the possibility of indicating something that is PD-old, PD-USGov or PD-NASA. For all other cases, they would have to choose "Enter a different license in wikitext format", and then manually inputting the template. Sannita (WMF) (talk) 15:27, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sannita (WMF): I think that wording is a bit problematic. Although many Commons users colloquially refer to something like {{PD-FLGov}} as a "license tag", it is not a license. It is a tag expressing a reason for being in the public domain.

I can see two ways to solve this. One is that "not protected by copyright law" could still leave the option open of selecting any of the tags that start with "PD". The other is that we would say "Enter a different license 'or PD tag in wikitext format" (emphasis here for discussion, not intended for the UI). I don't think we should expect end users to be aware of a verbal shorthand specific to this project. - Jmabel ! talk 19:22, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lojas com História logo

I want to ask whether the logo for Lojas com História seen here would fall below COM:TOO Portugal under PD-textlogo. it is composed of text but it is stylised.

if so, I would go ahead and ask the graphics team for an SVG version, including without the plural S, as seen on specific shops such as here. Juwan (talk) 14:22, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The text part should be fine; the anchor, no. - Jmabel ! talk 19:15, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a screen with the text, without the anchor, at the end of the video. - Davidships (talk) 20:42, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

South Africa's TOO

There's nothing written about South Africa's COM:TOO in COM:South Africa, and there's nothing specifically mentioned about logos. A number of logos for South African newspapers were recently uploaded locally to English Wikipedia as non-free content (en:File:Beeld Logo.svg, en:File:Diamond Fields Advertiser Logo.png, en:File:Sunday Times (South Africa) Logo.png, en:File:Isolezwe Logo.svg, en:File:The Witness (newspaper) Logo.png, en:File:City Press (South Africa) Logo.svg, and en:File:Rapport (newspaper) Logo.svg), but seem too simple to be eligible for copyright protection in the US per COM:TOO United States; so, they've been relicensed. If these are OK for Commons, then they could be tagged to be moved; however, South Africa's TOO is unclear. Would these be OK for Commons? -- Marchjuly (talk) 19:26, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It should be close to that of UK. Ruslik (talk) 20:26, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, the UK's current TOO would not be the same as South Africa's, since, during its membership in the EU, the UK abandoned the "skill and labour" test in favor of the "independent intellectual creation" (InfoPaq) test. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 22:01, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is fairly low, but there are still arguably limits. I have strong doubts about the copyrightability in SA of the letters DFA in a standard text font. Some reading: 1, 2. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 22:05, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Old newspaper letter to the editor

I have a photocopy of a letter to the editor of a newspaper that was written by one of my relatives and published in the newspaper in a small town no later than 1954. Is it safe to assume that it isn't under copyright? Bubba73 (talk) 22:29, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It depends. In what country? What was the newspaper? If it's a small-town paper in the US, then it's probably not in copyright, since there was probably not a notice, or, if there was, there probably wasn't a renewal. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 00:09, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The U.S. The newspaper was probably the Atkinson County Times, in the small town of Pearson, Georgia. I doubt it was renewed. Also, it was a letter to the editor - could the newspaper copyright that - they didn't create it. Bubba73 (talk) 01:55, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They would not own the copyright, but the newspaper's copyright notice would have preserved the copyright for the owner (for 28 years anyways). But yes, your relative would have had to renew the copyright most likely for it to still exist. For good measure, that newspaper is not listed in UPenn's periodical renewal page. So it should be fine. In many other countries though (and for U.S. letters to the editor published today), the copyright would last for the author's lifetime and 70 more years, so something from 1954 would likely still be under copyright. And while the U.S. copyright would have expired, there are likely some countries where your relative's letter still has a copyright. But it'd be fine to upload here. Carl Lindberg (talk) 02:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I don't know when it was published, but the letter says that the town has a post office. But the post office closed in 1954, so it is no later than 1954. There is a good chance that the writer has been dead over 70 years. Bubba73 (talk) 02:26, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here it is. Bubba73 (talk) 02:39, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Copyrightability - David Hammons' Flag

Wondering whether a simple flag work by artist David Hammons meets the standards for copyrightable material. Hammons created African-American Flag in 1990, it is a direct facsimile of the American flag but with the colors changed - red, white, and blue become red, black, and green, the colors of the Pan-African flag. Obviously the American flag design itself is public domain, but do the remixed colors make it sufficiently original to gain copyright in the US? Thanks for any insights! 19h00s (talk) 01:08, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 03:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please, verify this license as valid.

Here: File:Osho Drive By.jpg is one photo from the 1980's with the same common source has a total of 49 photos- many not yet uploaded. I want to upload the remaining photos, not already uploaded, if the reasoning to support this license is still valid. In 2021, the license was reviewed by User:廣九直通車, but I just wanted another opinion as I not familiar with this source type. Thank you, -- Ooligan (talk) 01:14, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's fine. If someone wanted to be a stickler they could argue that "use freely" is a bit vague compared to a CC license, but it seems to me that the intent was clear. Plenty of images that were uploaded to Wikipedia in the same timeframe (2003, Wikimedia Commons did not yet exist) was no clearer than this about licensing, and in general we've kept those. I can't see how we would hold another site to a higher standard of license specificity than ourselves. - Jmabel ! talk 03:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you @Jmabel. Best regards, -- Ooligan (talk) 05:40, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:King Charles III of Australia official portrait.jpg

en:File:King Charles III of Australia official portrait.jpg was uploaded locally to English Wikipedia as non-free content, which is a problem because non-free images of living people are pretty much never allowed per Wikipedia's non-free content use policy. The file can be found here where it clearly states that commercial use isn't allowed; however, the copyright statement for the source website states here that its content is released under a CC-by-4.0 International license. The uploader Nford24 of the file stated at en:WT:NFCC#File:King Charles III of Australia official portrait.jpg that the file is similar to File:The Queen of Australia.jpg in terms of licensing and thus should be OK. If the King Charles III file is OK for Commons than that would make the non-free content issues currently being discussed at en:Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 July 22#File:King Charles III of Australia official portrait.jpg a moot point since the file could be relicensed moved to Commons. Since Commons doesn't accept any type of NC, ND, NC-ND Creative Commons licenses per c:COM:LJ, it would seem that this image isn't OK for Commons. Would that a correct assessment of the image's licensing or is there something that I'm missing here? -- Marchjuly (talk) 12:44, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[6] excepts "content supplied by third parties" from the CC license. And [7] says the portraits of king and queen "have been provided to the Australian Government by Buckingham Palace". Which would be such a third party I guess. --Rosenzweig τ 12:55, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PD-NWS

Can an administrator come figure out what should happen with Commons:Deletion requests/File:Damage from the 1968 Charles City tornado just south of the Cedar River looking north.jpg. The deletion request was opened up on July 10, so it is over a week old. However, the main concern involves the actual PD-NWS and the deletion request nominator has stated up to maybe 150+ images are affected, including potentially an image uploaded by a Commons Administrator. I am posting here since maybe a single image deletion request isn’t the best method for this discussion. Or, maybe it is. I don’t know, but the discussion is very forum-like and needs solving or some level of actual administrator involvement. WeatherWriter (talk) 16:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Kim Jong-suk politician photo.jpg

For context: this is sort of continued from the English Wikipedia. Anyway, there's a file I uploaded whose copyright I'm uncertain about. As the subject is (presumably) alive, the photo fails en:WP:NFCC#1. Should the image be considered public domain or have a completely different license altogether? - OpalYosutebito (talk) 22:05, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@OpalYosutebito: On what theory would it be in the public domain? - Jmabel ! talk 04:01, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mentioned Template:KOGL to support this decision, with the first parameter containing "Ministry of Korea". It would make more sense once you've read the full conversation - OpalYosutebito (talk) 13:15, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding / updating images from english wikipedia to other wikipedias

Can I upload images from the english wikipedia to add or update images that aren't available in other language's wikipedias? Or there is something about copyright or something like that which explain why I can't do that? Catwalk0337 (talk) 23:03, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Catwalk0337. You can only upload such images if they clearly meet Commons:Licensing. Many files uploaded to local Wikipedias are considered to be "non-free" or "fair use" content, and such content isn't allowed to be uploaded to Commons per COM:FAIR. If you're not sure about the copyright status of the file you want to upload, then you probably should ask about it here first. Lots files cross-wiki uploaded to Commons end up being deleted because their licensing doesn't meet Commons licensing requirements. Those who do that too many times might end up being warned or perhaps even blocked by a Commons administrator. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:46, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does this meet the threshold of originality?

https://0x0.st/Xp_0.png this image is taken from a book which is copyrighted and claims all tables/images are copyrighted to them unless stated that the copyright belongs to another publisher/person. But I believe (but am not certain) that this image being of chemical structures does not qualify as meeting the threshold of originality and should be fine to use. Traumnovelle (talk) 02:02, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hard to imagine anyone could successfully claim a copyright on that. - Jmabel ! talk 04:03, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In that case I'll be uploading it for use on en.wp unless there are other concerns. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:05, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio confirmed

Hi everybody, I had tagged these uploads as "permission missing" yesterday and also, on the German WP, asked the user with the photographer's name if he had given his consent. This user is currently not verified yet as being the photographer himself, but that's in the making.

He denied that the uploading account is his, and said that the images were uploaded without his permission. So this seems a pretty clear case.

Now, my question is: Should we just leave the "permission missing" tag as it is, or should we speed this up in some way? --2003:C0:8F0C:7F00:9C77:9AFE:559D:290B 08:24, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no need, if the permission is not submitted in a week, the image will be deleted. Günther Frager (talk) 12:33, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Commons:Village pump/Copyright

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How much do we actually care about paintings being in the public domain in the United States?

Which expiration date should the copyright of this image take?

Théodore Simon photos

More than just this one...

File:Rogers Mall Plan.jpg

Copyright status of photos by French photo studio Harcourt

File:Jack-Thomas-Nicholas-Profile.jpg

When downloading an image, what do I need to include?

Is direct usage of PD-old ever correct?

w:en:File:'Cyparissus', copper and brass sculpture by --Bumpei Akaji--, 1968, --Hawaii State Art Museum--.JPG

Category:Artwork at Times Square station

Brazil FOP

Commons:Deletion requests/File:Priscilla l Teaser Trailer.webm

Obtaining permission for iconic/historic photos

How can I upload http://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/32312. The file is Public Domain...

Lojas com História logo

South Africa's TOO

Old newspaper letter to the editor

Copyrightability - David Hammons' Flag

Please, verify this license as valid.

File:King Charles III of Australia official portrait.jpg

PD-NWS

File:Kim Jong-suk politician photo.jpg

Adding / updating images from english wikipedia to other wikipedias

Does this meet the threshold of originality?

Copyvio confirmed

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Commons:Village pump/Copyright

How much do we actually care about paintings being in the public domain in the United States?

Which expiration date should the copyright of this image take?

Théodore Simon photos

More than just this one...

File:Rogers Mall Plan.jpg

Copyright status of photos by French photo studio Harcourt

File:Jack-Thomas-Nicholas-Profile.jpg

When downloading an image, what do I need to include?

Is direct usage of PD-old ever correct?

w:en:File:'Cyparissus', copper and brass sculpture by --Bumpei Akaji--, 1968, --Hawaii State Art Museum--.JPG

Category:Artwork at Times Square station

Brazil FOP

Commons:Deletion requests/File:Priscilla l Teaser Trailer.webm

Obtaining permission for iconic/historic photos

How can I upload http://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/32312. The file is Public Domain...

Lojas com História logo

South Africa's TOO

Old newspaper letter to the editor

Copyrightability - David Hammons' Flag

Please, verify this license as valid.

File:King Charles III of Australia official portrait.jpg

PD-NWS

File:Kim Jong-suk politician photo.jpg

Adding / updating images from english wikipedia to other wikipedias

Does this meet the threshold of originality?

Copyvio confirmed

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